I'm bringing back the .40

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For penetration, are you looking at velocity or ft/lb energy? Or something else?
Good question: there are a few competing factors. Velocity and bullet weight matter, as does frontal area and bullet construction. Expansion will work against you, hence the non-expanding cast bullet. All things being equal, a smaller diameter bullet will out-penetrate a larger one. When we add diameter, we need to add velocity which also adds recoil. For simplicity's sake, the bullet is the easiest variable to modify. Everything is a compromise.

I should add that I was carrying a rifle with this handgun. If I were bowhunting (which, as a straight man, is unlikely), I would probably carry one of my big bore revolvers.
 
Seeing a lot of "40 S&W +P" in here... as a guy who has replaced a Gen5 Glock 23 frame from shooting such ammo... I would vigorously encourage all who are doing such to do due diligence on your particular pistol as thoroughly as humanly possible to make sure it is capable of handling such ammo. If the chamber is partially unsupported - ala Glock - all it takes is that one anomalous cartridge case that ruptures for whatever reason and you are proper fucked. By adding pressure to speed up lighter bullets, the odds for "shit to happen" start to stack fast, especially in the 40 S&W. I love the 40 S&W and have shot them extensively in USPSA and carry one daily (the G23 with the new frame). Coming from a past life where we shot A LOT of jello with a lot of stuff...that extra 50 or 100 fps doesn't typically make a lot of difference in depth of penetration... What does matter is: 1. Proper Bullet Construction (a solid cup and core bullet, not plated or HARD cast) 2. Sectional Density (length for weight) and 3. Adequate Velocity - within the SAAMI established performance range for the given bullet weight in a given cartridge. This will result in maximum RELIABLE penetration that the pistol in question is capable of delivering. Emphasis on reliable. Pistol bullets seldom create a temporary cavity like rifle bullets. If you want more penetration, shoot a heavier bullet for the diameter...don't add more propellant to a lighter bullet... or do, if that's your jam... The 40 S&W is quite possibly the worst cartridge to take this approach with, as most of the guns 40's are chambered in were engineered to be 9mm's... Most 10mm pistols were engineered to be 10mm... just something to think on... Best of luck out there... I know I sound crazy to the guys who have never had a problem with this shit; I had to learn it the hard way, just trying to save you some skin.
 
Regarding the .40... Prior to 2012, Our department used to give officers their choice of calibers 9mm, .40, .45 ACP... at that time officers could also choose their duty issue handgun, either a Glock (variety of models) or a Kimber 1911. Our SWAT team could use either the Glock 21 in .45 or the Kimber also in .45. The issued Patrol rifle at the time was a Ruger Mini 14.

In 2011 some of us wanted to revisit the whole duty issue thing and wanted to conduct a bunch of ammo testing and firearms testing to see what was best to actually be using given advancements in technology. The department finally agreed and we scheduled a major Test and Eval event at our range facility beginning in March 2012 and it went on non-stop for a few months. Law enforcement agencies sent reps from all over the country, and Canada to observe, and ammo and weapons manufacturers sent reps from all the major manufacturers to provide weapons and ammo for testing.

At the same time, we were testing body armor as well.

I leveraged the opportunity and got my admins ego fired up in front of all the other agencies and got them to commit to "we will purchase the best, money is no object, the best firearms, the best ammo determined at the end of this testing." And we, the end users, would be able to select whatever at whatever costs. The only caveat was we had to use firearms available to the general public (except for SWAT) and we had to use ammo available to the general public (even SWAT).

We fired all the major brands, in 9mm, .40., .45 ACP, .223 and .308... we shot every available (2012) AR variant, the H&K MP 5 and HK 53, the Ruger Mini 14, and a wide variety of commonly issued duty pistols.

Our testing involved saltwater immersion tests (because we are a port city and Tacoma is the 7th largest container shipping port on the North American continent.)

We fired through typical barriers that we would run into, windshields, residential sliding glass doors, residential windows, vehicle windows, common house construction walls and doors, commercial windows and glass doors, etc. We always used ballistic gelatin to stop the rounds after they were fired through whatever media or barriers. We fired through car doors, you name it.

At the end of the day, after all the data and testing was compiled with the reps present the results were shocking...

We got rid of the Ruger Mini 14's and traded them in for S&W M&P 15s... we chose them because they held up the best or as well as any of the other brands WITH NO MALFUNCTIONS including the saltwater immersion test, at a reduced cost. Essentially the provided as good a product for a cheaper price.

We nuked all the Kimber's out of our arsenal; they rusted and corroded if you looked at them and their magazine capacity sucked.

We completely eliminated the .40 Cal from our arsenal and firearms selection. During the testing it did nothing that the new 9mm +P ammo or the .45 couldn't already do.

Our SWAT team immediately got rid of our MP 5s and HK 53s... HKs customer service sucked (2012) and during the testing the firearms reliability was questionable. We (SWAT entered into a contract with COLT as a result of this testing for their full auto M4s). Additionally, the 9mm coming out of the MP5s caused "over-penetration" concerns for us during the testing... it went through house walls, vehicles, busses, etc. and kept on rolling. We can't have that. We switched to the .223 (Colt M4 and S&W M&P 15)

Glock became our ONLY issued duty pistol... it smoked everyone else in the testing, lack of maintenance requirements and ease of maintenance and saltwater immersion tests.

Our SWAT team immediately switched from the .45 ACP (which we had previously been mandated to carry on SWAT) to using 9mm Speer 147 gr duty ammo. In the testing through the various barriers, ballistic gelatin, etc. it smoked the .45 (hard to believe and accept but the proof was in front of us).

Point Blank body armor became our new duty issue, with trauma plates.

Everybody has their personal faves and preferences, but I'm a data guy and after participating in this extensive testing event I became a 9mm guy. A lot of people look at charts and manufacturers "data" and bullshit... but we actually looked at ballistic gelatin after firing through a car windshield or car door. In real world testing, regardless of what the manufacturer said on paper the results were hard to argue with.

Our duty ammo became Speer Gold Dot 9mm 147 gr.; Winchester Ranger 5.56 55 gr bonded; Hornaday AMAX 168 gr .7.62

Later on, we conducted a similarly large sniper rifle T-n-E event for our SWAT team with reps from all over coming in. more on that another time.

Attached are some pics from our testing event.
 

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Regarding the .40... Prior to 2012, Our department used to give officers their choice of calibers 9mm, .40, .45 ACP... at that time officers could also choose their duty issue handgun, either a Glock (variety of models) or a Kimber 1911. Our SWAT team could use either the Glock 21 in .45 or the Kimber also in .45. The issued Patrol rifle at the time was a Ruger Mini 14.

In 2011 some of us wanted to revisit the whole duty issue thing and wanted to conduct a bunch of ammo testing and firearms testing to see what was best to actually be using given advancements in technology. The department finally agreed and we scheduled a major Test and Eval event at our range facility beginning in March 2012 and it went on non-stop for a few months. Law enforcement agencies sent reps from all over the country, and Canada to observe, and ammo and weapons manufacturers sent reps from all the major manufacturers to provide weapons and ammo for testing.

At the same time, we were testing body armor as well.

I leveraged the opportunity and got my admins ego fired up in front of all the other agencies and got them to commit to "we will purchase the best, money is no object, the best firearms, the best ammo determined at the end of this testing." And we, the end users, would be able to select whatever at whatever costs. The only caveat was we had to use firearms available to the general public (except for SWAT) and we had to use ammo available to the general public (even SWAT).

We fired all the major brands, in 9mm, .40., .45 ACP, .223 and .308... we shot every available (2012) AR variant, the H&K MP 5 and HK 53, the Ruger Mini 14, and a wide variety of commonly issued duty pistols.

Our testing involved saltwater immersion tests (because we are a port city and Tacoma is the 7th largest container shipping port on the North American continent.)

We fired through typical barriers that we would run into, windshields, residential sliding glass doors, residential windows, vehicle windows, common house construction walls and doors, commercial windows and glass doors, etc. We always used ballistic gelatin to stop the rounds after they were fired through whatever media or barriers. We fired through car doors, you name it.

At the end of the day, after all the data and testing was compiled with the reps present the results were shocking...

We got rid of the Ruger Mini 14's and traded them in for S&W M&P 15s... we chose them because they held up the best or as well as any of the other brands WITH NO MALFUNCTIONS including the saltwater immersion test, at a reduced cost. Essentially the provided as good a product for a cheaper price.

We nuked all the Kimber's out of our arsenal; they rusted and corroded if you looked at them and their magazine capacity sucked.

We completely eliminated the .40 Cal from our arsenal and firearms selection. During the testing it did nothing that the new 9mm +P ammo or the .45 couldn't already do.

Our SWAT team immediately got rid of our MP 5s and HK 53s... HKs customer service sucked (2012) and during the testing the firearms reliability was questionable. We (SWAT entered into a contract with COLT as a result of this testing for their full auto M4s). Additionally, the 9mm coming out of the MP5s caused "over-penetration" concerns for us during the testing... it went through house walls, vehicles, busses, etc. and kept on rolling. We can't have that. We switched to the .223 (Colt M4 and S&W M&P 15)

Glock became our ONLY issued duty pistol... it smoked everyone else in the testing, lack of maintenance requirements and ease of maintenance and saltwater immersion tests.

Our SWAT team immediately switched from the .45 ACP (which we had previously been mandated to carry on SWAT) to using 9mm Speer 147 gr duty ammo. In the testing through the various barriers, ballistic gelatin, etc. it smoked the .45 (hard to believe and accept but the proof was in front of us).

Point Blank body armor became our new duty issue, with trauma plates.

Everybody has their personal faves and preferences, but I'm a data guy and after participating in this extensive testing event I became a 9mm guy. A lot of people look at charts and manufacturers "data" and bullshit... but we actually looked at ballistic gelatin after firing through a car windshield or car door. In real world testing, regardless of what the manufacturer said on paper the results were hard to argue with.

Our duty ammo became Speer Gold Dot 9mm 147 gr.; Winchester Ranger 5.56 55 gr bonded; Hornaday AMAX 168 gr .7.62

Later on, we conducted a similarly large sniper rifle T-n-E event for our SWAT team with reps from all over coming in. more on that another time.

Attached are some pics from our testing event.
For urban environments and bad guys..... AMEN. 100% spot on. Threats that are physically larger, more capable (teeth/claws) and lack the capacity for a sympathetic reaction to being shot...I'm for applying exactly this same logic to critter defense, but increasing the magnitude to account for size and nature. (not saying a meth-head isn't more psycho than a brown bear...brown bears are just bigger) This is fantastic info tho, and awesome pics. Thanks for sharing.
 
I love it that a thread about a lightweight bear defense gun evolved into 9mm vs. .45 for humans discussion…
Our testing wasn't about humans at all... that's people applying their interpretation to the point of the testing... our testing was about performance through all barriers, etc., bullet integrity, etc., had nothing to do with what happened when a person was shot was vs a dog or a bear... just how well a bullet penetrated, expanded and transferred energy.
 
Our testing wasn't about humans at all... that's people applying their interpretation to the point of the testing... our testing was about performance through all barriers, etc., bullet integrity, etc., had nothing to do with what happened when a person was shot was vs a dog or a bear... just how well a bullet penetrated, expanded and transferred energy.
Based upon the results of our testing, I wouldn't hesitate to use a 9mm, or .45 they'll do anything a 40 can do.
 
Our testing wasn't about humans at all... that's people applying their interpretation to the point of the testing... our testing was about performance through all barriers, etc., bullet integrity, etc., had nothing to do with what happened when a person was shot was vs a dog or a bear... just how well a bullet penetrated, expanded and transferred ener

I love it that a thread about a lightweight bear defense gun evolved into 9mm vs. .45 for humans discussion…
Oh, hell.... it's a nice afternoon and we're just talking guns... :) I rarely take my 40 hunting and I only use it for everything else because I have a metric shitload (literal) of practice ammo when I used to shoot at cardboard - 200gr FMJ @ 850 fps - and sometimes we have to put cattle down for various reasons. I've done that with a Glock 19 and the aforementioned GD 147's, and they work, but are objectively light for 1400lb critters. The 40 works better with FMJ's. (many times you can't "brain" them; rabies test, or other neurological conditions that require brain intact for testing.) I still keep the Lew Horton in the chest rig when hunting...I'll take the 6 310 grainers at 1000 fps if I have to bet my life on it. Same theory as the 9mm & 147's, just a magnitude increase... It all relates...mostly...
 
I’m all about realistic testing. The results of your tests are also the exact reason I feel the way I do about hunting bullets and why I favor controlled expansion bullets for reliable, straight line penetration. But I owe Chad a story so that discussion will have to wait.
 
Oh, hell.... it's a nice afternoon and we're just talking guns... :) I rarely take my 40 hunting and I only use it for everything else because I have a metric shitload (literal) of practice ammo when I used to shoot at cardboard - 200gr FMJ @ 850 fps - and sometimes we have to put cattle down for various reasons. I've done that with a Glock 19 and the aforementioned GD 147's, and they work, but are objectively light for 1400lb critters. The 40 works better with FMJ's. (many times you can't "brain" them; rabies test, or other neurological conditions that require brain intact for testing.) I still keep the Lew Horton in the chest rig when hunting...I'll take the 6 310 grainers at 1000 fps if I have to bet my life on it. Same theory as the 9mm & 147's, just a magnitude increase... It all relates...mostly...
I should add also that the 40 will do anything the 9 or 45 will do as well.
 
I’m all about realistic testing. The results of your tests are also the exact reason I feel the way I do about hunting bullets and why I favor controlled expansion bullets for reliable, straight line penetration. But I owe Chad a story so that discussion will have to wait.
Please make sure and throw some "cup & core" Truncated Cone Flat Points in that testing...even some "Hard Cast" bullets. I suspect you'll find either/both penetrate deeper and straighter than expanding bullets. If you encounter pretty much any tissue density inconsistency with an expanding bullet, the wide frontal area will tend to initiate a rotation, which can turn into a tumble. Line of penetration will typically stay fairly straight, but it's not at all uncommon to see expanding pistol bullets swap ends, even in bare gelatin. Sectional Density is the antidote, but it's difficult to add enough to fix the phenomena consistently. Looking very forward to reading what you put together for Chad.
 
Seriously. I wanted a lightweight backup gun for bear country. I bought one of those slick holsters that rides under your bino bra. Really handy way to carry a gun but I wanted to keep the size & weight to a minimum.

I've got a bunch of big bore revolvers but all of them are too heavy for what I wanted. Even my 10mms were bulkier that I would have liked.

I've become friendly with Ted McIntyre at Lost River Ammunition. He lives in Idaho and has a bunch of real-world experience thanks to his time in LE, as a contractor and being around big bears on a regular basis. He loads some super-cool niche stuff-- .44 Russian wadcutter, anyone?

He sold me on his 170gr. +P SWC load in .40 S&W. 1200 fps out of a Glock 20. I ordered some and picked up a police trade-in M&P .40 for like $229. The gun shot great with that ammo and was light and compact enough to ride on my gut without being too uncomfortable.

I'm a fan.

View attachment 94
Why did you make the choice to go with no light on your gun?
 
Debated it and probably should have used one but for two reasons: last minute half-assed preparations and trying to keep things as slick as possible.
Do you always keep a handheld light in your pockets?
 
Seriously. I wanted a lightweight backup gun for bear country. I bought one of those slick holsters that rides under your bino bra. Really handy way to carry a gun but I wanted to keep the size & weight to a minimum.

I've got a bunch of big bore revolvers but all of them are too heavy for what I wanted. Even my 10mms were bulkier that I would have liked.

I've become friendly with Ted McIntyre at Lost River Ammunition.
Meant to ask you; How does the LRA stuff feed for you and the M&P?
 
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